Unlocking Productivity with Tech-Driven Health Insights

Mark Smith: 0:14
Welcome to the Ecosystem Show. We're thrilled to have you with us here. We challenge traditional mindsets and explore innovative approaches to maximizing the value of your software estate. We don't expect you to agree with everything. Challenge us, share your thoughts and let's grow together. Now let's dive in it's showtime.

William Dorrington: 0:34
Hello everybody and welcome to the Ecosystems Show with myself, will, and we are joined by our lovely Anna and Mark. Today, unfortunately, our other friends are incredibly busy one in South Africa, and where is Andrew Anna?

Ana Welch : 0:48
Andrew is in the living room looking very focused on something right now.

William Dorrington: 0:54
Okay, so Andrew is in deep thought, which he normally does In deep thought, exactly, he normally does on this show, but he's in deeper thought today.

Mark Smith: 1:01
And he's in Boston this week, right?

Ana Welch : 1:03
He is, we are, that's where we are. We are in the US for the next three weeks.

William Dorrington: 1:07
International people mystery.

Mark Smith: 1:09
I love it. Huntingford in South Africa at the moment.

Ana Welch : 1:12
He is For the AI tour.

Mark Smith: 1:15
Yeah.

Ana Welch : 1:16
Pretty cool.

William Dorrington: 1:18
So we started off doing our usual preamble. We always start these shows about 30 minutes before we start recording, because we end up chatting about something. And then we realized actually we should have hit record and got to it a lot sooner, because the topic was interesting. And that topic was around routines and especially how you find time to fit health and how you schedule what time you get up, what time you go to bed, how you manage to fit that all in. We touched on this before with work-life integration, but we're trying to get a little bit deeper now and understand actually, mark, what do you do for your routine, anna? What do you do? What tech do you use to support that? What medicine do you take in regards to vitamins and health supplements? And well, mark's got a few interesting pieces that I don't know where we want to kick this off. Should we start in our morning routines, work our way through?

Mark Smith: 2:05
to the evening, I decided to do something different. Like each year, I always try to go. I don't want to just repeat last year, right, I want to. You know a term that I like is the concept of life hacking and going. You know a term that I like is the concept of of um, life hacking and going. You know, can I? I don't ever want to be static, right, I always want to be in in a state of evolution. And because we are human, we have this incredible ability to think contextually, outside ourselves and really understand. Why do we? If you want to, right, you can critically think about yourself and your processes and how you live your life.

Mark Smith: 2:43
And so, coming into this year, after doing a heap on social media last year, I decided to take a 12-month diet of social media. And and what? What do I mean by that? I removed all the apps off my phone and people. It's funny that when I've said this to folks in the last couple weeks and linkedin, yep, and linkedin removed linkedin as well. And now that means I still have it on my desktop computer, but of course, it can't remind me. I'm not jumping in there, I'm not going like. I don't sit at my desktop computer all the time, where I have my phone on me all the time, and so and what? So why did I do that? Because I a couple of reasons I really wanted to get into into meat, you know, like a full meal in the content I consumed in 2025. Because I feel like I'm in a race and the race is with myself to learn as much as I can, as deep as I can, on the practical application of ai. I just think it's going to be.

Mark Smith: 3:51
You know, I saw a quote the other day. They said people are saying ai is overhyped. The quote was that the person. I can't even remember who said it and it was you know some, you know, uh, I'm pretty sure it's from a university in the us and he was like, if you took the current commentary about ai that's in the market and you 10x that commentary, you still wouldn't be close to actually how big this is and how important it's going to be in our lives. So, in other words, he was saying it's not overhyped, it's underhyped.

Mark Smith: 4:27
And so for me, I am in this massive absorption phase and so a couple of things I changed in my life this year because my children have now got to an age that they sleep through the night. Because my children have now got to an age that they sleep through the night, I decided to go back to a habit I had in London, which is getting up at 5 am in the morning and starting to be a 5 am starter of my day, and my routine is this I get up, the first thing I do is I have a glass of water and I put a teaspoon of Celtic sea salt in that water and I drink it. And the reason is there's a lot of evidence that non-treated salt like Celtic sea salt, which has over 80 minerals in it, is incredibly powerful for your body. I grew up on a dairy farm where you always used to have what was called a salt lick in the paddock for the cows, and the cows would go and lick that block of salt which had molasses in it, but it was predominantly salt, a mineral block, and the reason is they were seeking the minerals that their body needed. That wasn't in the pasture, and if ever you wanted to fatten a cow up for sale, all you would do was remove the mineral block from the paddock, because then the cow would overeat trying to seek the minerals from its diet that its body needed. Why do we have an obesity epidemic around the world is because a lot of it is a mineral deficiency. Now, I'm not an expert on this, this is just what I'm applying to me. And so that mineral deficiency. So I've been taking celtic sea salt, um, as I say, five in the morning, and and here's the other little thing that, because a lot of you will go, yeah, but medicine tells us and science tells us that this will be bad for your arteries and it'll do all these different things. Well, as I say, I very specifically said it's Celtic sea salt I take.

Mark Smith: 6:30
And tell me what happens when you have an accident and go to hospital, right, what's the first thing they put in your arm? The beautiful clear bag they put. First thing they put in your arm the beautiful clear bag. They put a saline drip in your arm. They pump you full of salty water. If it was that bad, why was the first line of defense? Before they've worked out what's wrong with you if you're sick? Or they put saline into you? Right, because your body runs on electricity. Right, we're an electrical being and saline helps conductivity, so it helps your neurons, your brain fire all that kind of stuff. So that's one thing I do. The second thing I do is have a 200 ml glass of water and I add a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar. Tastes foul, horrible. One of the bad effects that some would say would be that it can erode the enamel on your teeth, and so that triggers another habit. I then go to the bathroom and I brush my teeth right. So those are three.

Mark Smith: 7:31
Things happen, and then I settle in for an hour of solid reading, reading new books I've already nailed five books for the year and onto my next, and I'm going deep. I'm reading everything I can, particularly not technically about AI, but really much more of the thought leadership how does it apply to business, how does it apply to our personal lives? And last year I read this paper by Dario Amadei right, who's the founder? With his sister, he founded Anthropic and he wrote it the Machines of Love and Grace how AI Could Transform the World for the Better. And I love it because he's a deep thinker. I've watched a three-hour podcast of him on it and what's brilliant about this? One of the five areas he delves into is the neuroscience and the mind yourself not abstract out there, but how does it apply to you, and biology and health is another section, and so here's like you need to understand your own body, health and composition.

Mark Smith: 8:30
And so, like the other thing, I, I take um a heck of like. Just to give you an example, I'll show you one here. Here's my daily vitamins that I'll take at midday. Now, these vitamins I have built up over time as I've understood my body as to what I take Vitamin D, I take fish oil, and a multivitamin. I take a very specific type of magnesium and I take um lion's mane, which is um actually derived from what lion's mane is, a mushroom and uh, and this is all for brain, cognitive and. And the other one I have there is turmeric. I take a three capsules of turmeric um because, once again, so much evidence about how it helps your defense system.

Mark Smith: 9:19
But after reading Machines of Love and Grace, I created my own GPT-4 mark and I input all the quantities, the types of stuff I'm taking, and I get the AI to really understand me and say, listen, are there any gaps in the supplements that I take? And it suggested and it also suggested the times of day that I should take them for maximum absorption, which is what you're really going for. You don't want to, as Will said before the show, take your vitamins in the wrong way, that you're just pissing it, creating very expensive piss right by letting it flush through your system. I can't believe. You said that, will. Anyhow, that's my morning routine. I know I had a bit of a monologue there, but Anna, what about you?

Ana Welch : 10:06
So I find that fascinating and, frankly, hard work, like it's hard work to have all of that. You know, the routine and the discipline, and I think discipline is something really interesting for many people and I think discipline is something that you can exercise when your tank is full, when your glass is full, right. So I am just, you know, fairly recently I've started to have a healthier way of living, partially because my child also started sleeping through the nights recently. So without sleep on an empty tank really really hard to really do anything but what I do right now. I have discovered within myself that I am not an early riser. I've tried to wake up early, which for me is like 6 am, definitely not 5. And it just doesn't work. I cannot focus. I focus much better towards the end of the afternoon. Actually that's my golden hour.

Ana Welch : 11:15
So I wake up and I take thyroid medicine. I have hypothyroidism, so then after that I drink a lot of water. I think I drink like two, three glasses of water, but I'm now looking into that Celtic salt and the cider vinegar, right, like why not? And I cannot eat or consume caffeine for an hour to 90 minutes after I take my medicine for complete absorption. Now that obviously enforces a healthy habit of not having caffeine straight away. So then I have like a coffee and for a long time last year I did not have breakfast Because I felt, like you know, most people kind of skip breakfast, do an intermittent fasting type of thing, and everybody raves about it and that it's really, really healthy.

Ana Welch : 12:17
However, there aren't many studies made on women. We don't really know how women's bodies react to intermittent fasting. So for me, I eat in the morning and it really helps me. It helps me from snacking at night, actually. So another myth that was going on was that you can eat too much protein. I now eat a lot more protein than before and I feel much better. So two eggs instead of one, you know, in the morning. Or like cottage cheese instead of instead of cereal. You know things like that.

Ana Welch : 12:53
Take my child into nursery and I tried to have um to set like three I wouldn't say big goals, but just three things in a day that I that I'd like to achieve, and yeah, and, and, and that's it. I am much more of a beginner when it comes to, you know, healthy lifestyle and routines and things like that, but I do feel that you know it's okay. It's okay like this as well, as you're building that discipline, you know every day. And vitamins I also take vitamins. I take magnesium, fish oil and I take just an active complex that contains vitamin D and folic acid and stuff like that. Nothing, fast, like a girl.

Mark Smith: 13:53
Yeah, I like it. I just shared on screen fast like a girl and my wife is currently reading this because, as anna said, there's a massive difference the number of hormones females have to males like should you fast on the week of your period or the week prior to your period? This lady, this doctor, has really broken this down in detail, and what I'm you know we're talking about is a lifestyle, not a diet. You it's not a one-off.

Mark Smith: 14:18
It's not a one-and-done that type of thing. And, by the way, none of what we're giving is medical advice. We're just doing what we do for ourselves, based on what we've learned ourselves.

Ana Welch : 14:29
To survive our lives right, Our super busy lives with crazy jobs and small children. What?

Mark Smith: 14:35
about you.

Ana Welch : 14:35
Will.

William Dorrington: 14:38
Yeah, I mean, I must admit, I mean I'm in absolute admiration of you both. Mine's a case of I'm great at testing things, so let me, let me walk through what my my routine. I was gonna say journey, because it is more of a journey for me. There's a lot of ups and downs and I'll explain that in a moment. We always talk about how great all this can be, but there's a couple of negatives to applying it for especially people like myself, scatterbrained and a bit more mental.

William Dorrington: 15:03
I'm trying the digital detoxing and that's really, really helped. So I have this app called Minimalist and what it does is I know I think we refer to gamification before in an early, early podcast we spoke about no, I want a mechanism of social media engagement where you'd you'd get a trigger which is a notification trigger, you're then engaged, you'd act and then you'd get a trigger which is like a notification trigger. You're then engaged, you'd act and then you'd invest. So that would be like Facebook Anna's uploading a new picture with Mark, so I go, oh, that's interesting, so I click on that and then you're both at the bar and the moment I then comment on it, I've done an investment. So the next time I get a notification from again. I'm more than likely to then click and you start getting that routine. You get hooked and all of a sudden and it's a good test this when you're waiting at a bar on your own or a restaurant, or 15 minutes in between a meeting or something what do you do? You pick up your phone and you have no idea, and then you go to one of the colorful apps and you click on it. Minimalist removes that framework altogether. It does not show you the notifications on apps that are not deemed important and, by proxy and by sorry, by default, all the other social media apps are gone.

William Dorrington: 16:03
If you do want to open a social media app, it makes you wait to think if you want to, and then you have to select how long you wish to use it for. You can block it in the morning. You can block it, and this has really worked for me for the last couple of weeks. The entire UI is completely standard. It's black and white. You have your favorite apps on the front page. You're not going to have any social media apps there and if you do, it really makes you think about it. You feel like you're getting a bit told off by your mom. It's quite good. And then everything else is just incredibly basic and that has helped me to no end. I mean it's incredibly boring, but it's functional, it works. It doesn't change any of the apps, it just changes the way you engage and the way you're notified and triggered to engage. So you have to make it as a conscious effort. So that's helped me a ton and I've noticed improvements in my sleep through that as well.

William Dorrington: 16:48
My morning isn't a 5am start. You know I'm more of a late person to go to bed, so I get up a little bit later. Late for me is about 7am, sometimes six, seven. I'm awful at sleeping, sleeping, but I've always sort of slept for about six to seven hours. Uh, every night, have a coffee and uh, my, my favorite thing at the moment I was saying this to uh anna and mark beforehand one of my favorite things that I make for breakfast is I spend a lot of time in slovakia and that sort of central european uh place and I just love that. He always eat these like big peppers, like paprika peppers and and cucumbers and tomatoes. You're like great, the English guys discovered vegetables, but yeah.

Ana Welch : 17:25
I really have.

William Dorrington: 17:25
Yeah, yeah, and the boiled eggs and salt, and that's what I have and I love it and I can't get enough of it. I'm just eating eggs and peppers and salt every day and it is just amazing. But the big thing for me is, unless I have my environment set up appropriately, I just forget to do it, and so one thing I'm doing at the moment is one of the rooms in the house I'm just kitting out with a full gym. So I've got the Peloton bicycle, I've got the Peloton tread coming in and I shared this with Mark the other day I've got this thing called Speedians. So check it out. It is a bit of a luxury purchase, but I do think it's one of those things. But you just need and it's a complete at home gym and the innovation is insane, focusing mainly on weights, lifting from legs to to, to, to arms, to back, to to everything, to to abs.

William Dorrington: 18:15
Check it out we'll drop a link because it is phenomenal and then, on top of that, ensuring that when I open the fridge and I'm running in between meetings, I'm trying to make lunch, etc. That the food set up correctly there. So actually I've re-signed up to hello fresh and that's just been phenomenal. Just having those, those, those sort of structured, pre-packaged uh ingredients to cook really nice meals with being a game changer so that coupled with the breakfast and then just soup for lunch, I've noticed works really well. Nice, and those staple meals then stops me from snacking and if I do snack I will another, another central european influence there with the soup for lunch.

Ana Welch : 18:52
That's what I ate my entire life. Yeah, absolutely right it is.

William Dorrington: 18:56
It is. It is entirely her influence and it helps a lot because when you then, when I do want to snack, I just make sure it's consciously snack, it's not just going to the cupboard and grabbing anything, it's going right. What do I actually need that's going to fill me up? And then just a uh, some actamil uh for probiotic, and then I I take vital. So we're all big fans of our vitamins. It sounds like vital. I've shouted about a few times uh, from uh mark, etc. They come pre-packaged. You do a bit of a health quiz. You can also then set off a blood sample and they will tailor your vitamins to your needs and I've found them really useful.

William Dorrington: 19:28
Drink an excessive amount of water all the time always been that's been my only good habit. I do bring to the table, yeah, uh, and then trying to get work done properly. So I I struggle a lot with my, my workload and work schedule and I think it's okay to admit that I don't think enough people admit it and actually knowing to stay on top of it and actually responding to things quicker and straight away, I'm trying this year rather than just put them to one side and prioritizing relationships more. So you'll notice, mark, I've reached out to you more than I probably ever have before and I'm trying to chat to you more and same with Anna and trying to focus sort of the effort around that. And then the last few things is knowledge consumption, so journals, online sites, blinkist I find really useful.

Mark Smith: 20:10
So I've been able to digest a book in 15 minutes Audible and paper books, but this is all good if you can be Just on that reaching out, is there any chance that you could reach out via WhatsApp rather than Grindr?

William Dorrington: 20:22
No, no, we met that way, mark, and we're going to stay that way. My friend, I'm quite the community on that I'm not kidding, this is insane, that's about sweaty moving on.

William Dorrington: 20:38
This is all really good, but I do have ADHD. I was diagnosed as a kid, and I've carried it through my adult life, and it is something that I do struggle with. I go from being really intense to being down here, and being consistent is tough, especially in our roles and especially in our lifestyles. We move around a lot. I mean, anna, you and I move around an awful lot, so making sure your lifestyle is portable with you is the key thing I find so true.

William Dorrington: 21:04
The last thing I want to leave us with, though, is Brian Johnson, so if you want to see what extreme looks like, you know if there's there's a Netflix documentary called don't die. Those in the tech space will have heard of Brian Johnson before, and he's a venture capitalist now, but he's taken this to an extreme where he's trying to reverse aging and he's trying this protocol called longevity. We can share a link for that. He has a site where he publishes all his data and what he does. I mean, I'm not advocating that I think any of us should take it to that extreme, because it is his life. It's just that now, but really interesting to see what he does.

Mark Smith: 21:45
Sam Altman's also been talking the last week or so, um about an llm they're running on, um on aging and what makes us age and and and the interesting things that it's finding in there and that, and I've always, you know the the movie benjamin button appeals to me. I was saying before we came on here like, uh, anna, last year dynamics minds got me onto this aura ring and um, it's quite different than you know, my apple watch, and that what aura ring really does is just monitor and it just allows you to um get feedback by monitoring what you're doing and you know, across kind of three or four key areas, which are how much you're moving in your in your daily, uh, how much you're sleeping and and how well and how well exactly. And you know, my kids have been away for the last two nights with their grandma and I've had two solid night sleeps. It's magical.

Ana Welch : 22:46
I think you look a bit younger. Right now I'm sleeping and I feel like wow, I am Superman.

Mark Smith: 22:53
Amazing yeah, but one of the things like cardiovascular aging, like, as I know, I was two years ahead of my actual age and now I've got that right back in alignment and dropping, I've added. So meg and I do three days a week we go walking together, which, by the way, put the health benefits aside, the relationship benefits, and there's been studies done on this, as through the roof, just walking together with your partner and just being able to chat, and things like that has been amazing. When I say walking, we've got, uh, three mountains around us. We climb to the top of those mountains and back.

Mark Smith: 23:27
So, um, like Monday's legs day, because I climb a hundred, over a hundred steps on this mountain trail and so it's a real solid workout, gets the heart rate up and but, once again, the effect that it's having on my health by walking these three you know, monday, wednesdays and fridays has been off the rictus scale, just beneficial, and so we've done that consistently since the start of the year, and I mean what we're only up to. Are we week three yet of the year? Um, coming in week four, right, and um, but yeah, it's just, I am pumped about this year, it's just, I am so excited another thing that the aura ring does.

Ana Welch : 24:40
Yeah, because I, I started this and um is for girls. Uh, because the fun fact was actually developed for women. Not many devices out there have been developed for women and studied for a woman's biology, but these have been initially built for fertility tracking. Yeah, so they track your menstrual cycle, but what that means is that it will tell you you know if your energy levels are low, why are they low, you know if you maybe should take a nap. If you didn't sleep, well, what? What should you do? You know, and things like that.

Ana Welch : 25:22
And it's really, really helpful because, of course, it's not helping you Like your day is still your day. You still have today. I've had it's 3.35 PM in the US. I've done eight and a half hours of meetings today already, so it's nothing's going to help you with that. You need to do the things that you need to do right, but at least you understand it. You need to do the things that you need to do right, but at least you understand it. At least you're not. I feel like so many of us are like on this guilt trip that we're not doing enough, that we're not learning enough, that we're not, and not many people are in competition with themselves as you, very healthfully, are, mark. Yeah, a lot of us are actually in competition with our peers, you know, with other people, you know, I don't know. Will's, for example, younger than me and he's a CTO at a big firm.

William Dorrington: 26:21
Like he's done so much more.

Ana Welch : 26:22
I'm sure older it's amazing, but like it's, it's, it's tempting, but I feel like it gives you um, um, it gives you a bit of um, confirmation and help within your own mind that you're still doing well and and and so on, so forth. Because, um, and sometimes, for example, I've tried to implement the hour walk, uh, three times, three times a week as well. It just hasn't worked because in the end, I figured out that I really need that hour to, you know to, to work.

William Dorrington: 26:59
It's hard, wow, like I said, discipline is very, very hard but I love something you said there, anna, and it's just a soundbite that just keeps playing in my head. And it just passed you by, which a lot of yours do, which is why we love you. But you, you said something which is but your day is still your day, and what?

William Dorrington: 27:17
that equates to me is it's got to be sustainable, it's got to fit into your life. So we talk about work-life integration, we talk about all this stuff, but mark's routine is never going to work for you, you know, and, to be honest, you're probably already up at 5 am occasionally with alex etc anyway, so it's all I am, but then I go back to sleep like I was up at a quarter to five today and I thought it was awful and like I convinced her to go back to sleep, and then I went to sleep for another hour because otherwise I felt like I could just not deal with my day, and that's OK.

Ana Welch : 27:47
So if you, if you're reading all of these articles, that you know you need to start at 5 am and straight with a walk outside and looking to the sun am and straight with a walk outside and looking to the sun, but you know that you've got toddlers or actually you're on a long work journey, you know towards your customer, and then you know that you've been, you're gonna, you're just about to be fed, you know sandwiches with like tuna and sadness and crisps and you're not going to be able to sustain a healthy diet and maybe you've forgotten your vitamins at home. It's okay, you can start again tomorrow. You know your days are days.

Ana Welch : 28:25
That's the.

Mark Smith: 28:25
Thing.

Ana Welch : 28:26
Yeah, your days are days.

Mark Smith: 28:29
And it's interesting what Anna said there Understand what's called your chronotype. Your chronotype is basically where you're in flow. Chick Mahai had a whole book on the importance of how you can be more productive and flow as an as an opposed to also identifying when you're out of flow and therefore stop doing what you're doing because you're probably not going to be in a sweet spot. But it's interesting because one of the things that aura ring is is showing me I'm an early morning chronotype and just because I am doesn't mean you are and I go back to you need to understand you. You need to build your. You know if you're using ai, build it in context of you, create your own chat gpt for you and understand your vitals, your health, etc. Now I'm less than 10 in the people in the world or people on aura rings. Less than 10% actually are in that chronotype. So don't try and be me. Don't try and be Anna. Don't try and be Will Find your thing that works for you is what's really critically important.

Mark Smith: 29:29
That's why I don't buy into diets. That's why I don't feel like what I'm doing is a diet, because there's no label. There's no one thing that I'm doing. It's a range of things, but it's been beneficial. I've dropped 15 kgs in weight. I'm feeling more healthy than I ever have. I'll probably drop another 10 this year. I've already dropped three since the first of this month.

William Dorrington: 29:52
Well, our community is going to love you. Then, mark, from what you said earlier, what's that? What's?

Mark Smith: 29:57
that.

William Dorrington: 29:58
I'm going to go.

Mark Smith: 29:59
Yeah, yeah.

Ana Welch : 30:01
You got it. I'm going to get my, I'm getting all rips.

Mark Smith: 30:04
I can go to the beach in my Speedos. Attract all the men's. Here's a. I'll leave this thought with you. Buying a couch for a homeless person is an interesting quote. Anna and I were in a session yesterday.

Ana Welch : 30:20
Did you have?

Mark Smith: 30:20
the quote, Anna, or was it? Yeah, I said it.

Ana Welch : 30:24
I said it, but it came from Andrew actually. Yeah, buying a couch for a homeless person.

Mark Smith: 30:28
It's brilliant.

Ana Welch : 30:29
Tell us the story Andrew was talking about and we were talking about this thing earlier in the week where I kind of said, listen, your environment is an incredibly important factor in your life, like it's really getting you through the grinder. Like, no matter what there you go, no matter what and how much you want to change your life, your environment is going to affect you a lot. And translating that into technology is your technology environment is going to affect you a lot. Like there's no point in you wanting to do AI and copilot and so on if all of your data is, you know, in Excel spreadsheets and on people's desktops and in SharePoint and all over the place. Right, it's just not going to work.

Ana Welch : 31:22
So then later that day, when Andrew and I had a conversation with a customer and they were trying to push for AI at some point, he was just so exasperated he was like, listen, if you're gonna install an ai product over the top of no databases is like buying a couch for a homeless person. It's gonna be dangerous. Just don't do it. And yeah, I thought it was a great, it's a good analogy right yeah, yeah, it really is.

Mark Smith: 31:58
Because then we're in a client meeting all together while running a workshop and that whole concept of sometimes AI being forced down our throats into areas that hang on, you're just not ready, you don't have the environment for it, and you know we're saying but you need.

William Dorrington: 32:16
Yeah, I think we're all experiencing that at the moment, but that's what happens when you get the uh, when you get the buzz right.

Mark Smith: 32:22
Yeah yeah, hey, it's. It's been epic talking to you. I know that anna and I uh specifically 12 minutes late for another appointment. Um, it's chirping on the other monitor. Um, while we're in the meeting guys, it's been epic once again to chat with you, hang out with you. Really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it, it's been really good.

Ana Welch : 32:43
I really hope that this is, uh, I really hope that this is useful for for people. For me, it's really inspirational to talk to people like you, mark, and you will, because I, you know everybody. Uh, I okay, I'll just speak to myself. You look like super um successful people and it at some point, it can almost feel unachievable. So I think that sharing what we do every day is, you know, it's valuable, so thank you and likewise, to be honest, anna, come on.

William Dorrington: 33:19
You once said to me, when I said Anna, another great quote, another great quote from Anna. She has loads and sorry, I know we're trying to wrap this up, but it's important we get this across. I said Anna, when she was coming into Curve. I said you really have it all, don't you? You've managed to achieve it all.

William Dorrington: 33:33
And she said well, I haven't got it all, but I'm trying to get most, you know I'm a mom, I'm working full-time and I'm in a really successful hiring career and I said, gosh, she's done it all, she's got it all. She's like no, but I'm trying to get most and I love that as well, so remember that, all right cheers all.

Mark Smith: 33:50
Thank you, thanks for tuning into the ecosystem show. We hope you found today's discussion insightful and thought-provoking, and maybe you had a laugh or two. Remember your feedback and challenges help us all grow, so don't hesitate to share your perspective. Stay connected with us for more innovative ideas and strategies to enhance your software estate. Until next time, keep pushing the boundaries and creating value. See you on the next episode.